Zachary Zane — Being a Hardcore Boyslut, Coming out as Bisexual, Walking Out of Gay Sex Parties, Navigating Polyamory and More – #22

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by Ellie Goode

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Zachary Zane

Zachary Zane aka The Boyslut (his words, not mine) – is an incredible writer, sex expert, and columnist who doesn’t shy away from sex.

Zach has written for big publications like the New York Times, Rolling Stone, Cosmo, GQ, and many others.

Zach has written for big publications like the New York Times, Rolling Stone, Cosmo, GQ, and many others.

And — he’s just published a book called Boyslut: A Memoir and Manifesto (you should DEFINITELY buy a copy. I’ve got mine already. You can thank me later).

Zach is also the “editor-in-chief of Boyslut Zine, which publishes real sex stories from kinksters worldwide.”

Despite growing up in a supportive, sex-positive family, Zach still wrestled with sexual shame growing up.

He came out as bisexual at a time when no one understood or knew what it was.

He was judged for it.

Told by gay men – “Oh I was bi too honey, you’ll get there.”

But Zach is bisexual, not gay.

So despite being ostracised for who he was, Zach decided to embrace everything about himself.

He went all in with sex.

And it made all the difference.

Quit doing yoga. Express your rage and have earth-shattering orgasms instead 👇

After initially wanting to pursue a PhD in psychology, Zachary Zane started writing about his bisexuality – and a piece he submitted to XO Jane went viral.

He fell in love with writing and exploring his sexuality, and decided to pursue that instead (and after reading a few of his pieces on Cosmo, I’m sooooo glad he did).

Do yourself a favour and go check out Zach’s writing – it’s full of brazen, sexually insightful, heart-warming wisdom, and witty anecdotes that will make you laugh out loud.

Zach’s writing is refreshingly honest.

And in his book, he shares how he overcame his sexual shame, details of his wildest sexual escapades, how he faced rejection, and everything he’s learned about sex along the way.

Zach is passionate about destroying the stigma around sex so we can all be free to enjoy orgies, sex parties, and being tied up by a dominatrix – without judgement.

Because no one should have to justify their sexual preferences, desires, or kinks (unless it’s harmful to another person of course).

So – it’s time to embrace your sexuality, fire up your passion, and dive into those wild fantasies that race through your brain (and set off a mini-orgasm while you’re waiting in line for your morning latte).

Click the play button right now to overcome your sexual shame and learn how to be a Boyslut. 🔥

In this episode, you’ll learn…

  • How Zach learned to embrace himself sexually (hint: he didn’t drown himself in self-help books)
  • What to do if you’re at a sex party and just not “feeling it” (time to make a sneaky getaway)
  • How to deal with sexual shame and rejection (because we all go through this)
  • Why you’re “special but not unique” – and why this is a good thing
  • How to deal with the judgement and stigma around bisexuality (or sexuality as a whole)
  • The importance of slowing down and appreciating life, learning to say “no” to shitty freelance jobs, and how to go after what you want in life

Connect with Zachary Zane:

How To Live Your Life Without Sexual Shame

Navigating Ethical Non-Monogamy and Gay Sex Parties


Ellie McIntyre - sex money and rage podcast

Ellie Goode Host of the Provocative “Sex, Money & Rage Podcast, Nervous System Junkie, and Plant Psychonaut 🌿

I created Sex, Money & Rage to talk about everything that’s taboo. BDSM. Plant medicine. Healthy Rage. Kink. Emotions. Boundaries. Money issues. Less thinking, more feeling. How to get into your body and silence your overactive mind.

Sex, Money & Rage provides straight-up, powerful nervous system tools to help you dominate life’s toughest moments.

All podcast episodes are located here.


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Transcript:

Ellie Goode: Welcome to the Sex, Money and Rage podcast. 

Zachary Zane: So I think once I finally like came out as bisexual, I’m already existing outside of the norms of what’s expected sexually. So like, well, if I’m going to be fucking men and women, why not embrace other aspects of sex? You know what I mean. I’m already ostracized, I’m already part of this marginalized community. Let’s just fucking enjoy it. So I think after that I was like well, fuck it. I’ve been denying myself what I want in terms of dating and sex with men. Why deny myself any other aspect of sexuality either? 

Ellie Goode: Hello, rages, and welcome back to sex money and rage. Sex money and rage. Sex money and rage. I’m your host, Ellie, and thank you for listening to this incredible episode with Zachary Zane. Today I thought I’d do something a bit different. I am promoting my email list and I want to encourage you to go and subscribe, so I’m not going to just tell you to do it. I’m going to read you out a sample of one of my emails, all about but plugs, because I thought it was very fitting for today’s topic about sex. So here’s a snippet in case you want to know what you’re in for if you sign up. 

Ellie Goode: In this email, I’m going to talk about one thing butt plugs, because butt plugs are powerful, they’re awesome and they make you feel things you never thought possible, all those tiny nerve endings you never expected to find in your butt. I mean, who knew a gold mine was tucked away out there. It’s wild, but (in inverted commas) I love it. The problem is, society is still so ashamed about anal play. You’re judged for enjoying a physical sensation. You’re judged for being curious, playful and interesting, and people find but plugs gross, rude or disgusting. But — there’s that word again. I think they’re liberating. Butt plugs can free you from sexual shame stigma and make you feel like an awesome human being, especially if you have one tucked up there during the day. Talk about adding some spice to your life. Anyway, there’s a snippet If you’re cringing so hard, then my emails are definitely not for you. 

Ellie Goode: If you’re laughing and smiling, then you’re going to love the emails. So, yeah, go sign up at sexmoneyrage.com and you can enter your email and it’s totally free, and I write about how to get out of your head and into your body, into feeling all the things that our bodies have inside of us and, of course, psychedelics. So go sign up, you will not be disappointed at all, i promise. If you’re easily offended and somehow ended up listening to a podcast about sex, money and rage, you should probably push the pause button right now, or maybe you should listen, i don’t know. Anyway, please enjoy this episode of sex, money and rage. Let’s jump in. Welcome back to sex, money and rage. 

Ellie Goode: Today I’m here with Zachary Zane, who also calls himself the boy slut, which is really cool. He’s a Brooklyn based columnist, author and sex expert whose work focuses on sexuality, lifestyle and culture, and he has a new book coming out called boy slut, a memoir and manifesto, which we’re going to talk about today. So, through the lens of his bisexuality and self-described sluttiness, he breaks down exactly how sexual shame negatively impacts our lives and how we can unlearn the harmful entrenched messages that society imparts to us. He is the founder and editor in chief of Boy Slut Zine, which publishes real sex stories from kinksters worldwide, and it’s very raunchy. So he also writes Sexplain It, the weekly and sex relationship advice column over at Men’s Health, and his work has been published in the New York Times, rolling Stone, Washington Post, Cosmo, GQ and many others. So what an interesting bio. Yeah, awesome, there’s going to be, yeah, some cool stuff we can cover today. So I guess, to start at the beginning, how did you, how did you get into writing and writing about sex specifically, what? how did? 

Zachary Zane: that come about, sure. So I actually thought I was going to pursue a PhD in clinical psychology. I was working at Harvard Medical Center as a smoking cessation researcher and counselor, so figuring out the best way to get people to quit smoking cigarettes, and, yeah, i kind of had a panic attack. I was about to apply for PhD programs. I’m like for the seemingly altruistic profession that they are cutthroat, they are nasty, they will steal your work, and so I started writing and I wrote this like novel while at work because I was bored. And then I learned that in order to get a novel published, you have to have, like, write things for other places. So I ended up writing this piece on bisexuality I think the way that it was for, like, exo-janes. It happened to me vertical, which was like a big, maybe like 10 years ago, and I think the way they titled it was. 

Zachary Zane: I came out as bisexual and now can’t date anyone, gay or straight. When I wrote about all the struggles I had dating as a by-man and I thought, once I came out as bi, like that would be the hard part And everyone would embrace me with open arms, and I was just so foolish And, like women, believe all these stereotypes about me that I was just secretly gay and I was going to leave them for a man. And then gay men were often like very condescending where they would be like, oh I was bi too, honey, you’ll get there. Like then you’ll come out as gay. And then I fell in love with this bi woman and like everything kind of clicked and it was so much easier And the piece just went viral. 

Zachary Zane: And I think it went viral in part because there was such a dearth of bisexual visibility and bisexual writing back then. At the time it was just like 10 things to never say to a bisexual person or like bisexuality is real, but there wasn’t really anything written by bi person for bi person on navigating their identity and their relationships. It was a lot of a bi person writing to convince straight and gay people that bisexuality is real. And then kind of from there, because that went viral, it just kind of like I started writing from that and I spoke to a lot about bisexuality. That then kind of opened up to queer sexuality and then specifically male sexuality. And then from there, kind of what I do now, which is tackle all aspects of sexuality and reducing sexual shame for everyone, regardless of gender or sexual orientation Awesome. 

Ellie Goode: That’s super interesting, i think, yeah, like bisexuality, like you said, it’s something that hasn’t been talked about a lot or written about until sort of recently, and that’s super interesting. That your article went viral, did you like? how did you get it onto XO Jane? Did you just reach out to publishers or how did that sort of start? 

Zachary Zane: I think for that they were accepting pieces off on spec And it was like the time where it’s like they paid you 50 bucks and I don’t think I ever got paid for you to write the most like intense personal essay possible, just burying your soul, and because I didn’t have any other writing experience. Submitting on spec was good. So on spec means you submit the whole piece as opposed to submitting a pitch And for that, like they just read it. If they like it, they publish it. They don’t care if you don’t have any other public essays published elsewhere. They submit it on spec and they accepted it. 

Ellie Goode: Awesome, Awesome, That’s typical. And then and then that sort of blew up. And so then you started writing for these other publications, and now Men’s Health And and now I guess we can say we’re into sort of your book. And what inspired you to to write Boy Slut and what is it about? 

Zachary Zane: Yeah. So in short, it’s about how to live your life without sexual shame, and there really has not been a queer memoir that focuses on a bisexual male experience. I feel like right now at the risk of sounding a little bitchy or comfy like I’m very tired of reading the same little gay boy who grew up in the south slash Midwest, grew up in a religious household, gets kicked out of his family for being gay, moves to New York City, finds his chosen family and lives happily ever after. And I’m not saying that those stories are not important, they’re absolutely super important. But it’s just a small subsection of the queer experience And so I wanted something more. 

Zachary Zane: And I think what in my book, which is a little bit different, is I grew up in a very sex positive, queer affirming household and I still grew up with so much sexual shame, so much fear and anxiety and self loading around my sexuality. And it’s because you know sex negativity is pervasive, it is insidious, it’s not just from your parents, you soak it up from all aspects of your life. So I’m writing from a perspective of someone who actually had a supportive family and still struggled immensely with the sexuality and his identity And I talk a lot about being polyamorous, which I am. I also have chapters on, you know, very intense kinks and fetishes that I’m horrified of my grandmother reading and praying to God she does not read my fucking book, otherwise I will give her a heart attack and be responsible for her that. But yeah, so it looks at kind of various aspects of queer identity that hasn’t been explored a lot about bisexuality, a lot about kinks and fetishes, a lot about polyamory. 

Zachary Zane: I have a chapter dedicated to rejection. Why are we so bad at, you know, receiving rejection and why are we so bad at rejecting other people, despite it being, you know, a universal experience? I have a chapter on like grinder and hookup culture, a chapter about growing up with terrible OCD and how my OCD manifested in sexual shame and guilt. So, like each chapter, it’s loosely chronological, but each chapter has a theme that I’m exploring in that chapter. 

Ellie Goode: That’s awesome And in each chapter sort of is based a bit on sex, on your personal experience and as well as sort of the topic itself. 

Zachary Zane: Exactly So. The book is a memoir and a manifesto. It’s really called Boy Slut, a memoir and manifesto. And you know, I think the memoir is me talking about my experience, but I use it as a launching off point to kind of make some larger points about anything you know. Something larger in society, Yeah, That’s cool. 

Ellie Goode: I think that’s really awesome because I think there’s a lot of books out there that are very clinical and scientific, which is great, and we need those But I think the real power comes from sharing your own story and storytelling and saying you know, this happened to me and this was my experience, because then people can identify with that and go, oh, like that resonates with me. I had that experience where I felt that way, or and it’s a way for them to connect and learn through narrative and through someone else’s experience, which is really cool. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, absolutely. And when I started writing, like I’m good, i still get messages from people who have messages, you know, at least once or twice a week, from people like across the globe. But, like, especially when I started writing, a lot of the messages were like I have never met another bisexual man, i’ve never shared this with anyone. There was just a really such little male bisexual visibility bisexual visibility in general, but specifically male bisexual visibility that they like literally thought they were so alone. And I think one thing about being a writer that you learn pretty quickly is while you are I don’t know how I want to frame this, but it’s like while you are special, you’re not unique, or it’s that like, yes, your experience is your experience. However, it probably mirrors that of gajillions of other people and this is good. So when you’re sharing something you think is very special or individual to you, it’s really not, and that’s usually what others can learn the most from. 

Ellie Goode: Absolutely, absolutely, and so so you mentioned it was mainly or largely about sort of overcoming sexual shame. I guess can we, can we sort of touch on what has been your experience of sexual shame or where do you see that in I guess men maybe, specifically, and what are some things that that helps you overcome that, or that you’ve seen work for people? 

Zachary Zane: I mean there’s just still so much like, even now, like just so much shame around having the sex you want, the type of sex you want, with whoever you want, however you want, and people still, even my most sex positive friends still have to justify almost their behavior. They can’t just be like this is what I want, this is who I want to sleep with, this is how I want to have sex. And I think it’s reaching a point where you feel empowered and not feeling like you have to justify and not feeling ashamed. I mean there’s definitely, obviously at the base level, just not feeling ashamed for your behaviors and embracing them. But at a almost a higher level, it’s not feeling the need to justify your behavior, just being able to do it and embrace it. And I think for me, a lot of it came from actually embracing my bisexuality. That allowed me to embrace other elements of sex, as already I was kind of going so much against the grain And at the time I came out as bi. I didn’t know any other bi guys. Every bi guy in college came out as gay shortly after. So even though I was like, even though I’m egocentric, i wasn’t delusional. I’m like I can’t be the only person in this world with the sexuality. 

Zachary Zane: Eventually I had a therapist who was like no, no, you’re very clearly bisexual. Like, like, i like what’s the confusion here? You shouldn’t be confused. And I remember I said to him I’m like, oh, that shit doesn’t exist in men. And he said Zach, you’re too smart to think that. But so I’m going to. I forgot what the thing. Oh yeah. So I think once I finally like came out as bisexual, i’m already existing outside of the norms of what’s expected sexually. So I’m like well, if I’m going to be fucking men and women, why not embrace other aspects of sex? You know what I mean? I’m already ostracized, i’m already part of this marginalized community. Let’s just fucking enjoy it. So I think after that I was like well, fuck it. I’ve been denying myself what I want in terms of dating and sex with men. Why deny myself and any other aspect of sexuality either? 

Ellie Goode: So cool. I love that Because it’s especially said about like the sort of turning point was when you started just accepting yourself as being bisexual And I think you know that’s something that a lot of people on the podcast have said is just this power of being authentic and just being yourself and owning it, whatever that is, and how that has really helped people. Then, like you said, just go off and do whatever, whatever the fuck you want to do, because you’ve just accepted yourself. And, like you said, if you’re going to be ostracized, you know you may as well have fun And and there’s I mean there’s always going to be people that are going to look negatively on on certain people, certain things, and cast these judgments, and I think you just have to live your life the way you want anyway. 

Zachary Zane: And, as I say it out loud, i find it interesting, you know, like gay men typically have more or more sexually shameless once they’ve embraced being gay and they’re more open to new experiences and everything. And I feel like it’s because their identity itself is already considered taboo. So why not lean in? And so I could see it as a particular struggle for someone who otherwise is not marginalized, someone who experiences privilege and every other aspect of their life. To then embraced a taboo identity when they actually are accepted into the mainstream could be also something that’s challenging and a unique challenge for people who are straight. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, Yeah, I think it’s just yeah, people who haven’t had certain challenges are going to find it hard to understand why someone would be. It would be a certain way, you know, like my mom is a very religious person and I drink plant medicines or psychedelics, and she just doesn’t understand And that’s totally cool. Like you know, there’s just different people have different perceptions and different identities, like you said, and feelings, And I think it’s just the more you can. Something I’ve been learning is the more you can accept yourself, you know, the more you can accept other people in the process, which is really cool. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, absolutely. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, yeah, so awesome. So all right, where we want to go next? So in terms of you mentioned sort of embracing your bisexuality, then kind of opened the doorway into polyamory and, you know, exploring kinks and fetishes. So yeah, how do you think embracing that piece of the puzzle has sort of shifted your life as well? 

Zachary Zane: I mean, I feel like my life is so much richer. You know, I’m able to have the relationships that I want to have. I’m able to experience more love, more sex, more meaning, more passion, more excitement through being able to embrace, you know, ethically non monogamous relationship styles and through exploring elements of BDSM and kink and various different fetishos. 

Ellie Goode: Cool, so I guess. So, in terms of you embracing your sexuality and trying all these new experiences, which is awesome, how has that sort of influenced your writing or, you know, i guess, your freelance business or as a writer, how has that sort of impacted your ability to sort of just go out and go after what you want, in a business sense, i guess? 

Zachary Zane: Oh, yeah, i mean I’ve never necessarily saw it as like a personality trait that extends beyond kind of a sexual or relational realm. But yeah, i mean I’m definitely like I’m a full time freelancer. I have my digital zine, actually just as of today, so by the time this podcast come out it’ll be as of a few months. I actually just got a call on my Cosmo, which I’m very excited for, which is called navigating non monogamy And it’s sharing all of the mistakes I’ve made in my ethical non monogamous journey And when I learned from them. So hopefully you don’t make the same exact mistakes that I did. But I’m very excited for that because right now, even though there’s so much non monogamy content out there, it’s all focused on, like, how to navigate jealousy And that’s just like one small section of the non monogamous conversation. So I’m excited to kind of actually talk about things that like people who have been non monogamous for more than a year who are like, okay, i kind of have a foot on my like a handle on my jealousy. There’s all this other shit I have to deal with that no one’s talking about. So I’m excited for that, but no, i uh. Yeah, i’m someone who very much goes out and gets what he wants. 

Zachary Zane: I feel like an every aspect of my life, especially in a work. I mean, i have a probably an unhealthy relationship with work. I am a workaholic. I can’t sometimes appreciate the fact that, like something very cool happens And I’m like Whoa, what’s next? And even this week I had like a lot of monumental kind of things. 

Zachary Zane: I’m reading my boy slut for audible right now And that’s just a huge, challenging thing I’m doing. I got a call on my Cosmo, which I’ve been pitching for like four or five months. Finally it came out. I have a very good review of boy slut coming out in book lists which I can share now because it’ll be out by the time. By the time it’s that I got verified on Instagram, you know. It’s like all of these things I’ve been trying to do for a while And then immediately I’m like, oh, what’s next? That’s like, well, let’s take a moment to appreciate all these incredible things that I’ve worked very hard towards happening. So for me, yeah, i mean I go out and get what I want, maybe to a fault, and I think I need to probably take a step back and start appreciating what I do, not necessarily being a perfectionist, not always wanting more, not being a greedy bisexual, and other aspects of my life, just in my sexual aspects, i love that, but maybe in a work capacity of just kind of slowing things down. 

Ellie Goode: And so I guess that sort of leads me to my next question of how do you stay motivated? Have you always sort of been this person that wants to go out and get what they want? Or is it because you’re really passionate about the bisexuality sort of thing? Or yeah, what does the motivation come from? 

Zachary Zane: It’s. I think it’s a range of factors. I really do love what I do, i am lucky, and I remember when I worked at Mass General Hospital, massachusetts General Hospital, as a smoking cessation researcher and counselor at Harvard, i was like I hated my job. I just assumed everyone hated their job. I just assumed you go in, you fucking want to kill yourself You work at I was there from like 730 to 430. And I just wanted to die And I just assumed that this is what life was. 

Zachary Zane: And then when I kind of got this other job or this career writing and I can make my own schedule, it’s like, oh my God, i actually love what I do And I actually love helping people. I love helping bisexual people, polyamorous people, kinky people And that’s what’s driven me so much to kind of do what I do. And then you just kind of like it. Like success gets addicting a little bit. You know what I mean. You start also I was making such little money for so long as a freelance writer And then I started working with like sex toy companies, writing books, doing these other aspects, and started making like just a normal amount of money that I don’t. 

Zachary Zane: I do not make a ton of money but like, just like a more than most freelancers, because I definitely have hustled really hard and know where the money is and know how to find it and work towards that. And then kind of making money is a little bit addictive too. The moment you start making it, you’re like, oh shit, i could like travel, i can take an Uber home and not have to wait for the train at 4am, like I could just go out and party and have some fun and, you know, buy people shots and not want to kill myself the next day for doing that because I you know, i’ve done that before. Where I’m like I don’t have the money to be buying people shots, why am I doing this? So I think making money becomes a little bit addicting to a success becomes addictive And, yeah, something I’m just trying to be mindful of, as I said, slowing down, appreciating the success as it comes and not always looking for the next thing. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, yeah, i think that’s a good point. It’s it’s something I’ve encountered as well in business is just always like wanting to hustle and wanting to like get up early and get shit done And, like you said, sometimes you need to slow down and take time off, which is something I definitely struggle with too. 

Zachary Zane: It’s also, you said, such a scarcity mentality, especially being a freelancer. You’re like you don’t know when your next job is going to be, so you just said yes to everything Because, oh, this pays 50 bucks, whatever you have to do it. You kind of don’t have an option. And I’ve been writing for a long time This is not like I’m not a new writer. I’ve I’ve been doing this for, you know, almost a decade where it’s like, no, i can say no, it’s okay to say no, more work will come in. You know, i can pitch myself out. It’s okay, like you’ve put in a lot of years, a lot of hard work. That like you don’t have to say yes to absolutely everything but that’s your ski mentality sometimes is still kind of at the forefront of my mind. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, definitely, i definitely can relate to that in a sense. It’s almost like the more you practice saying no, the more you have that capacity to say, like you said, go after what you want, or bring in these other jobs that are bigger and better and more, i guess, aligned, because you know, like the minute you say no to someone, it’s almost like they want to work with you. So it creates this dynamic, yeah, which is which is cool. So so you’ve been freelancing for the last 10 years. 

Zachary Zane: You mentioned Let’s see, not in the 10 years Eight. I started writing in 2015. So eight years. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, nice, nice. And so I guess, what are some of the challenges you face? I mean, you sort of mentioned sort of the work can be up and down, but yeah, what are some of the, i guess, main challenges you faced and how did you ever come them? 

Zachary Zane: I think, really trying to like set a nine to five where, like because you make your own schedule, sometimes I just feel like I’m always working. It’s like you’re just like oh well, if I work this weekend, i can make more money because I have more gigs coming in, so why not work this weekend? Or like, oh, I got an email late at night, i might as well answer it. Versus like you’re not in the office, you don’t go home. Stop, turn down your laptop. It’s like my laptop is literally I don’t think you can see my one bedroom here, but it’s like right next to my TV I have my big monitor. It’s like, oh, i see emails come up as I’m watching TV, but I just won’t answer them. And it’s like no, making sure to kind of set those boundaries for yourself, being like no, this is a time off and I’m taking the Sunday off and setting those boundaries with yourself. I think it’s just really tough on your freelance because, yeah, you could theoretically be working all the time. 

Ellie Goode: And I guess too, because it’s like you know, you don’t have that certainty of income, Sometimes you like, oh, yeah, like I want to take on all these jobs and interesting, you know jobs or interesting work. It sort of makes it harder to say no, yeah, yeah, yeah, so okay, cool. Well, if you’re open to, i’d love to sort of talk about some of the non monogamy sort of things that you’ve learned and maybe sort of what you’re thinking of doing for the Cosmo column, if you’re able to share that. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, absolutely. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah Cool. 

Zachary Zane: Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. I can ask my specific question. 

Ellie Goode: It’s all good. So yeah, just if you can talk to some of the, i guess, things you’ve learned about the ethical non monogamy for especially, maybe, couples that are a year into it and some of the things that they’re interested in besides jealousy you mentioned before. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, i don’t want to say too much here, but I think like my first call came out today so I can talk about that, and I spoke about how I actually went into non monogamy or polyamory for the wrong reasons. I thought I just broken up with my girlfriend And at the time I did not want to be monogamous again. I was monogamous with her. I just wanted to casually date, fuck around. I thought I was making that very clear. I started dating two guys very casually. I told them I’m not looking for another serious boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever, and both of them asked me to be monogamous. 

Zachary Zane: And when I told the second one no, he like cried and yelled at me and said I was a dick and I let him on and I was like No, i was so like I felt bad for him, but I also was like I’m not the asshole here. I was so clear about my intent, but people are not picking up on that. So I was like you know what? I’m just gonna fuck people like that’s it? make it so clear that like get on, grinder, be like I’m fucking you. You’re out of my apartment, i don’t want to see you again. No Netflix and chill. No dates and nothing, even casual, because you guys are getting the wrong idea. So I was doing that for a while and then I met this man. I guess I always have all these fake names for him, so I’ll go with Cooper for the arcana, i guess, for this one And he. I met him at this like underground leather bar called at Jax Cabaret and the name. The event was called The Fascination and this is in Boston. 

Ellie Goode: Sorry, what’s a little bit cafe. 

Zachary Zane: What do I call it? a leather? That’s a cabaret leather. Oh, oh, jax, cabaret is the name of the club Okay, the bar in Boston And I was there with some friends. 

Zachary Zane: They’re like, oh, you must meet this guy. He’s also bisexual and it was kind of awkward being introduced to someone just because you’re bisexual. And I was like, oh, this is kind of weird. And then it turned out he had a boyfriend who he was there with any of the wife and girlfriend who he lived with. And I was like just starting out writing and I was like, hey, you know, i’d love to interview you. Like I think this is such an interesting dynamic And I think what also why he liked me is when he said this whole thing. 

Zachary Zane: I asked him are you happy? And he goes what I go, are you happy with your arrangement? And he thinks about it and he goes, yeah, i really am. And then I asked to interview him. But I think everyone always responds with how do you navigate that? How do you deal with jealousy? How do you deal with time? And I think I was one of the first people. I was just like I could figure out how to deal with jealousy And I was like I don’t know how to talk about it, it’s not that fucking hard, but people love to make it harder than it is Like. So he’s like, yeah, i’d love to be interviewed. 

Zachary Zane: So I met his, like Pauli Kuhl, which is kind of the group of your interconnected web of Pauli people, his wife, his girlfriend, his wife’s boyfriend, all of it, all that stuff And I remember thinking polyamory was not right for me. I remember like seeing them and them feeling like they had to be like equally affectionate to each partner. So one partner got a kiss, the other one did, and like, like this seems like a lot of work And like you had a lot of conversations And the last thing I wanted was more work. That’s absolutely not what I was trying to do. I found out less work in my life, less hard talks, but he kept inviting me out just to hang out with them and eventually invited me out on like a date. And even though I was not doing dates at that time, i thought that he couldn’t be. I thought things couldn’t get serious with him. He had a wife and a girlfriend, he lived with a boyfriend and then the other secondary and like tertiary partners. So I was like, yeah, sure, i’ll do this. And of course, you know, one date led to two and we fell in love And I at that point he and his girlfriend had broken up and I moved in with him and his wife. 

Zachary Zane: But I kind of went into the relationship specifically thinking it could not get serious. And that’s why I did it. And it felt very safe. As someone who has a more avoidant attachment style, it was like, oh like, well, i can’t get married, you know, there’s nothing serious we can do. And so I was very honest and open with him And that’s kind of how I fell into non monogamy. But I went into it thinking that non monogamy is polyamory, is not serious, and that’s why you got into it. As opposed to polyamory, you do it because you want to have more love and more meaningful connections in your life, not fewer. So that, for example, is like the first realization I had about polyamory. And that’s what kind of the starting that that’s my introduction to you know, polyamory and what kind of the first, first essays about for Cosmo. 

Ellie Goode: Wow, that’s, that’s so cool that you just like met him and then in a bar and then was like Oh, an interview, and you went on this whole sort of journey. That’s. I really liked what you said about you know, this idea of you know the non monogamy being something that’s not serious and instead it’s it’s actually about having more love and more experiences. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, And I think it’s tough is when you’re non monogamous and like you’re dating people who claim, who are new to it and claim that they are into it and essentially they date you until they find the person they want to be monogamous with and then settle down and it’s like, well, that still hurts me. You know what I mean. I still have feelings and, yes, i have other partners, but you did just break up with me and for a reason that I kind of had nothing to do with me and I do kind of feel used and temporary. So it’s something that I know, polly, people struggle with when it’s like Oh, i thought you were Polly, but I guess you’re not and you were just using me for the time being and I like do more than you like me, and this is a shitty feeling. 

Ellie Goode: And so I guess, like communication, like you said, i guess having boundaries and communicating and knowing what you want and communicating that to people is super important in the non monogamy space. Yeah absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting And so so, yeah, and in terms of, i guess, sort of stepping forward in some of the kinks and stuff, how has what was that like sort of exploring different kinks and fetishes is you know, was it sort of really fun, really sort of scary like was it? how did it sort of push you as a person? 

Zachary Zane: I think it was scary in the beginning, like I like I definitely I wasn’t used to these spaces and my exploration kind of into like I remember going to a first like now I love gay sex parties, i am like king of gay sex parties. I go to gay saunas. I fucking live my best life. But I remember going to my first one as there with my boyfriend at the time And after like two minutes I’m like we got to leave. I do not feel comfortable And it was because, like I did not realize, you know, there’s different types of consent And right now we really focus on enthusiastic consent. Yes means yes, and gay spaces are really not. That Our gay sex parties say is typically not that. It’s really more opt out consent meaning no means no. So people feel like they’re going to touch you first And if you’re not interested, you kind of brush their hand away and usually look at the message And if not, you kind of say like Hey, no, you need to leave and they will go. But it’s like not, like Hey, can I kiss you? Which is kind of now that world standard And no form of consent is superior. You just need to make it very clear as to what type of consent you’re utilizing in that space, which I feel like gay sex parties don’t necessarily do. 

Zachary Zane: And gay sex parties are often a little bit like a free for all, where it’s like if you’re getting, if you’re, you know the bottom, and just like five guys can just kind of slide in And that’s very fun and hot And I love that now. But at the time I was like I’m being touched, i don’t like these guys, i want to get the fuck out of here. So you know, i think that was an example of like going in and being like maybe this isn’t for me. And then I realized like, oh, okay, this can be for me, but I have to be in the right headspace for this. I have to know that I have to say no and assert my boundaries more than I have to do in other spaces And that you know, if I’m face down, ass up, it’s a free for all And whoever wants to come in and do it and that’s fine And that’s hot. 

Zachary Zane: And you know, like, especially if you are someone who wants loves, the anonymity, you don’t want someone to go up to you and be like, oh, can I stick my dick in your ass? Like no, just do it, take it. That’s the whole point of the scene. So I think that was just. I’m rambling a little bit here, but it’s just like an example of what I went in like not knowing what to expect And because of that was very turned off. Versus now, i have a better sense of what to expect, feel more comfortable saying no and setting my boundaries in a sexual setting that, like I actually love going into these spaces. 

Ellie Goode: That’s a really good point And I love that you sort of mentioned that you felt uncomfortable at first, because I know I like I definitely have this idea of, oh, everyone, just you know, if they’re in that scene, like they, they’re just enjoying it. And I think you know there are times where people get overwhelmed or feel like, oh, like what’s going on, like I need to get out of here and, and you know, good, good for you for listening to that feeling. I think it’s something that you know. when we feel uncomfortable in a sexual setting, you know, sometimes we can sort of beat ourselves up about it. you know, oh, what’s going on, and I think to be able to identify that, and then also, yeah, like, take action, and then come back and set boundaries. 

Zachary Zane: It’s fair, and I’ve done this a lot times too. Even now, if I go to a sex party and remember I’m like a little bit tired, i had a rough day, i’m fighting with my partner or whatever it is, and I’ve gone and been like I’m just not feeling this, just leave. You know, i know you paid however much 30 bucks, 50 bucks, maybe 80 bucks but like just get the fuck out of there, like it’s sunk costs there. I mean, of course, try to stay for 30 minutes, see if I can turn my spirit around, not immediately go in and walk out, but like and there’s nothing wrong with that too, if you want to just go in and walk out, you’re not feeling it, but like I try to, you know, get in the right headspace, but if I can’t, i just leave and that’s fine. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, yeah, i love that. I think, yeah, it’s really cool to just hear that you can, yeah, that you just leave, and I think that often people forget that they have that option, like I mean, i know, I I have forgotten that at different times. You know, like, oh, i can just leave, i just, you know, get up and walk out and, and it’s interesting, something that I, that I’ve learned recently is so, when I’m on a date with someone, something I’ve started doing is asking, like, do I feel safe with this person? You know, and just seeing how my body responds to it, cause then it really drops you into how you’re feeling, and then you can then go, okay, like do I want to stay or do I want to go? Or, you know, rather than being in my head about it, it’s it really drops me into my, into my body, which is has been really cool to sort of explore. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, i mean, it’s always good to just have a check in with yourself. How are you feeling? What are you thinking? Do I feel safe here? Am I enjoying, am I actually enjoying this? It’s like a good question to ask yourself. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, for sure, cause, yeah, like sometimes you’re not And, like you said, that’s okay. You can go in 30 seconds and leave if you’re, if it’s not your scene, and I think that’s a really good point to make. 

Zachary Zane: Cause I often think of the Kim Cattrell quote that she has, where it’s just like she had that interview whatever it was a few years ago that she was like I don’t want to be anywhere for more than a minute where I’m not enjoying myself. It’s like what she said. I’m like, yeah, we’re grown as people. We can leave, we can go. You know what I mean. Like that that’s an option And something I’m trying to remind. Of course, you know, if you’re going to a friend show, i wouldn’t necessarily leave after 30 seconds, but like certain commitments and some social etiquette, but like realizing that I don’t have to be in spaces most of the time if I don’t want to be there. 

Ellie Goode: Absolutely, absolutely, and and I think that applies not just in the sex world but in relationships and life and business It’s like you know you don’t ever have to do things you don’t want to do. I mean, obviously, sometimes you know, like if you want to have a good body, you have to go to the gym or like work out. There’s definitely, like you said, social etiquette or different things you know we have to do if we want to get to where we want to go. But in terms of like, if you don’t feel safe or if you feel uncomfortable, if you’re not enjoying yourself, you know you have the power and the freedom to change and to move or to leave, which is super cool, yeah, yeah, so I love it. 

Ellie Goode: I think it’s really cool how sex and this whole world of exploring and creativity can really it has like a ripple effect, you know, into other areas of your life. You know in the sense of you know like you touched upon consent or boundaries or different things. I think these are really important tools that we can have to then say to someone in business you know, like, i don’t like that. Can you, can we do this, can we do it this way? Or you know to a partner in a relationship or blah, blah, blah. Like I don’t enjoy that. Can we try this instead? And so it’s again that communication and boundaries, and it really has this ripple effect, which is cool. So Yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome, oh, and so okay. So you mentioned you. We’ve we’ve talked a bit about Boy Slut, so that’s sort of your, your next sort of big project, so so are you. 

Zachary Zane: It comes out May 9th Everyone, may 9th 2023, by 50,000 copies for you and everyone you know, please. And are you sorry? As I said, sold everywhere. books are sold, every country, every bookstore, amazon, online, every book place. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, Awesome, awesome. I was just going to sort of ask about that was are you self promoting? Are you working with a publisher? Has it sort of going to be rolled out? 

Zachary Zane: So I have a publisher and they assigned me a publicist So I work with him. But a lot of it the reason why, like, I got my book deals just from my connections. You know what I mean. So much of your proposal, like a half of your proposal for the book, is just like how I could get this sold. Here’s every single celebrity I’ve ever met who could tweet and share and do this book. Here’s every connection I have, every editor I know who will potentially publish a review or include me in a roundup. 

Zachary Zane: So you know the way I make my money is not from writing. It’s from like either consulting, which is usually in some PR capacity, So it’s like working with sex toy brands, either as a sex expert or ambassador or just as a strict consultant. So and I’ve done some like sex toy PR before So like that is what how I make my money and I’m quite good at it. So like that is I have a huge campaign that I’m doing myself and like a book tour partnering with sex toy products that there’s actually going to be a boy slut butt plug that comes out. Oh, that is amazing. Yeah, I can share this now in bisexual colors. And that’s with fun factory. Yeah, when this comes out, it should be available. So a bisexual colored boy slut butt plug. 

Ellie Goode: What is a bisexual colored? What is the? 

Zachary Zane: bisexual colors are like we have our own. It’s like a blue, pink and purple, which is like the bisexual flag. So it’s in those colors. But yeah, so working with that, trying to get on every podcast you know for the book tour, getting every single big author celebrity that I know to do the in conversation with me to see if they’re available, so like right now we’re three months out and I have at least 15 to 20 emails a day about press in some capacity, about my book in some capacity. So it’s just like a full time job. Again, i’m going above and beyond. But like this is my baby. This is my first big book. I co authored another book called men’s health best sex ever, and that was like for men’s health And it was sex tips for that. But this is like my baby and I’m investing kind of everything possible in it And I can. It’s just like it has been. 

Zachary Zane: I’m exhausted. You can probably tell from this conversation. I’m just truly exhausted And it comes out May 9. And then we already have a bunch of talk scheduled for pride, as we’re getting that done But literally come. That’s why it comes out May 9, because you kind of you get all the press in May and then it kind of dovetails into June, but come July 1, i’m just going to sleep for three months. I’m very looking forward to be like do not talk to me, i’ll write my column for men’s health, i’ll write my column for Cosmo. All right, i still have all my shit. I do. You know, i’ll write my articles for my digital zine. But like, beyond that, i am beyond that. I’m sleeping as much as humanly possible. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. I I love what you mentioned about using your connections and and and your background in PR consulting to really like launch this book, because it’s. I mean, there’s one thing you know you have a publisher but you still have to promote it, and I think that’s really cool that you’ve leveraged that network. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, and it’s a different era of like in social media. Like they care how many followers you have, Like they want to know. I think now more than ever, like you promote your own book more than the publishers do, And that’s just like. I think in the past 20 years, because of social media, because of the internet, because of all that, they kind of expect a lot more from the writer than from than the publisher during the work. That said, I don’t want to like my publisher is absolutely working his ass off. I don’t want to make it seem like he’s not doing anything. He’s doing a great job. He’s reaching out to as many people as possible to and coordinating all these launches. But, like, a lot of it definitely does fall on you as the writer. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, yeah. And so I guess, sort of to flow into the next question, would be you know how, what, what has helped you build your social following and to build these connections? 

Zachary Zane: What has really helped? Oh, time, you know, it’s like it’s people kind of asked me like, oh, i just like I’ve been doing this for forever, So I’ve just been networking for a long time. It’s, you know, like I used to go to every networking event, every type of thing, you know, as press. One thing is good as, as press, i don’t like I would go to these events for products that are launches I didn’t even care that much about. But I went specifically to schmooze with the other press there to see which other editors are going to be there, and then I could like that’s how I started up writing for a bunch of large publications. They happen to be there as well And I was just networking with them. I didn’t care about the product That was being launched, and then just kind of through, kind of going out and meeting people and DMing people and all that stuff. 

Zachary Zane: But I think it just comes with time. You know, i think that’s the main thing. And so, like, when people ask me I want to start writing a book, how do I get a publish on my build, your social media following? now, that is something that you can do. You can be posting more. You can be collaborating more. You can be doing all that stuff, because that’s what’s going to help a lot down the line And that’s not something you can kind of fix in a month. You know what I mean it just it does take time to build. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, definitely. I think that’s a really good point to make, because, you know, we live in this era of overnight success and people blowing up and going viral And I think, like you said it, just it takes time to really build a solid following and to build those relationships and those networks. So it’s something a lot of people have said is just the key to business is relationships, which I’ve definitely found. 

Zachary Zane: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. 

Ellie Goode: Cool. So do you have much else, have much more of your audible book to record, or you’re most finished. 

Zachary Zane: It’s. Reading this with a sore throat has literally been the worst experience. I’m like in the bathroom gargling salt between takes because of my guys out like this I have two more days, i have two more days and then. So I’ve done two days. I have two more days and then we’ll have a pickups, meaning that once it’s done and the editor goes through it, the actual like audio editor goes through it. 

Zachary Zane: Hope, like, hey, you actually slurred a few of these words and I go back in and just read those, those sentences Okay, yeah, awesome, but I will be. So that will be just like I’m going to. Really, i think this one, i think it’s just a lot harder than I expected and I expected it to be quite hard. So, yeah, but once that’s done, that will, i will feel very happy. Oh, yes, the book is coming out on audible. So I mean by the book, but you can also listen to my voice. If I mean, you’d listen to podcasts, clearly. So I feel like if that’s more of interest to you, i can absolutely buy the audible which comes out May 9th as well. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, you could just buy. Buy the book and the audible and you can read the book while you’re listening to the audible version. I love that You can see the cover all your way Ever so small differences. 

Zachary Zane: See if you can catch it. 

Ellie Goode: Yeah, yeah, it’ll help it sink in more because you’re engaging more senses. 

Zachary Zane: Absolutely. 

Ellie Goode: Awesome, awesome, we’re almost on time. Was there anything else you wanted to cover before we sort of wrap up or what do you think? 

Zachary Zane: I think we did a good job. Yeah, we can plug my book as much as one can possibly plug a book, so I’m happy. 

Ellie Goode: I must say I really love the title, so I think you’ve done a good job, especially the title. I haven’t read it, it’s not out, but yeah. And the lollipop on the cover was like, yeah, it’s good. 

Zachary Zane: Thank you, thank you? 

Ellie Goode: Did you come up with it yourself, or was that something you worked with the publisher, or something like that. 

Zachary Zane: Well, boycelle had been kind of my brand for a long time and I had this digital scene before submitting the Sorry brand, for before submitting the proposal to agents and publishers. And Boycelle, we were thinking about this a while ago I was with my writing mentor, who’s my uncle, who’s a very genius fiction writer, who teaches. It was so funny because I was like I need something catchy and something that the manhore doesn’t sound right or whatever it is. And we’re seeing this diner in a Portland Oregon and he’s like Zach, i have it And he writes it down on like the back of a receipt and then like slides it over as if he’s like offering me a job with a number on it. I turn it around, i look at it and some voice slut and I turn to him and I go this is it. This is fucking great, it is playful, it is funny, it’s helping to reclaim a word. It’s great And like that kind of became I don’t see my identity, but definitely became part of my brand for sure. 

Zachary Zane: And I have the digital scene. I have a sex party called voice slots. You know I had like the book, everything. So it definitely like we did it and fucking ran with it. Merch, yeah, there’s voice slot, merch. I have it everywhere. But um, yeah, i guess the last thing to say is to stay in touch with me. You can follow me on social media is the best way, trying to do less on Twitter, because that app drives me insane, and do more on Instagram, which I do a lot on. So both are Zachary Zane underscore the underscores at the end or Zachary Zanecom Um kind of has all my information there as well. 

Ellie Goode: Awesome, awesome, i love, i love, just like the voice. I mean, i haven’t heard of it until I, until I found you, but it has this, like you said, this playfulness, its cheekiness, but it’s, it’s like owning, like this, you know, like, because slut is typically a derogatory term. 

Zachary Zane: I think absolutely. 

Ellie Goode: Now. But so to really own that and bring playfulness, it’s sort of it’s quite like it’s just awesome, yeah, it’s, it’s really cool. 

Zachary Zane: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Yeah, i definitely hope to reclaim it as well. 

Ellie Goode: That’s cool, awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I hope you can wrap it up there and thank you everyone for listening. 

Zachary Zane: Awesome. Thank you guys. Thank you for listening. 

Ellie Goode: Don’t forget to go to sexmoneyragecom to sign up for my free emails, to learn how to get into your body and about all the cool shit that your nervous system can do. All right, rages, have a great week and I’ll see you next time.